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Post by Kai Wren on Jan 21, 2019 8:00:00 GMT
Hi there everyone!
As we start to get more people and activity, I wanted to solicit feedback from everyone about the way we handle XP currently.
Right now, social threads have been identified as the quickest and easiest way of earning XP for your character - that's fine; social threads are a great way to explore your character and XP is a good reward for doing so.
However, I'm not entirely happy with the idea that people could easily push themselves high up the tiers of play without ever completing a single adventure. From the perspective of the type of game I'd like to see on the site, I don't think we get that 'dungeons and dragons' feel if people can reach epic heights of power without venturing into the world to face down bad guys and save people.
Therefore, I'm considering changing the XP system accordingly:
From levels 1-5 you earn XP as currently allowed.
From levels 6-10 you only earn 1/2 XP from social threads or threads in which you act as DM when applying the XP reward to your character.
From level 11+ you may no longer earn XP from social threads, and threads in which you act as DM only provide 1/4 XP reward to your character.
This would ensure that there is a significant incentive for seeking out adventure threads, and that they are very definitely the biggest source of XP from level 6+.
Gold rewards would remain the same, so you'd still be able to earn cash (and thus buy awesome gear from the Auction House) regardless of your tier of play.
As this is a pretty significant change in the way the site is structured I don't want to make this decision unilaterally - I'd like everyone to have a think and let me know if they'd be on board with this.
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Kestrel
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 21, 2019 9:03:25 GMT
Maybe I’m just an old school RPer who’s done a LOT of traditional (mechanic free) sites, but I almost question why XP is offered for social threads just…in general?
I guess the way I see it, like you (Wren) said, DnD is all about facing down the bad guys, saving the world, and overall performing extraordinary feats. XP is kind of a reflection of that to me (the higher your level the more “exceptional and heroic” your character has become in comparison to your average Faerunian) and talking with other characters, bartering at the market, getting drunk at the tavern, and other “normal” social situations don’t really strike me as…noteworthy enough to really set yourself apart from everyone else? Unless the social situation is exceptional in and of itself like a high-stakes negotiation with the local gang leader or seeking information on a rare magic item (i.e. things that would make for a good adventure thread!). At least personally (and by no means am I saying I’m even remotely a great DM) that’s why I’ve never really offered XP to my players for just interacting with each other or doing basic things in town.
Instead, at the risk of sounding a little condescending, I think the character interactions themselves and building up relationships, personal storylines, etc. is the reward for social threads! RP is (depending on the group) as important to a game of DnD as leveling up, earning loot, and exploring the world, and I don’t think it should be just another means for getting XP as much as being part of the overall experience. That being said, I personally love the RP aspect of the game, and I understand that that’s not the same for everyone! But even then, my point still kind of stands: some people might not enjoy the RP aspect as much and may not be as into social threads (or heck, may just not be as experienced of a writer with lower word counts), and should we really penalize them for that? At the end of the day DnD is about the adventures!
So, I guess, overall, my thought is that XP should be solely rewarded for adventure threads (and even then, more so for actually defeating monsters, completing quests, etc. than just writing a lot) and social threads should be left more for character interactions and relationship building outside the former. I would still be completely down for awarding gold, it could be a neat way for representing characters earning cash on the side through their own side jobs, patrons, etc., but I do 100% agree that the thought of a character going from level 1 to 20 from just casually talking to people on the street is…odd, to say the least. That being said, Wren’s suggestion would completely work for me, but I figured I would just throw in my 2 cents on the subject!
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Post by Malakbel on Jan 21, 2019 13:46:44 GMT
To me, XP is tied into both character activity and character development, not just the slaying of monsters, and I believe the current systems captures a bit of that. The question would be then whether "adventuring" is something that is tied to In-Character story, or directly the slaying of monsters. I could make for instance, an adventure about in which two player characters must travel through the forest to deliver an antidote to a small town. There are no fighting encounters, only small moments where relevant ability checks come to be in the spotlight. The same thing I could do with a social thread; in both cases both the same things would be done, and the same interactions take place. Thus the only difference between them would be that of nomenclature.
I do when GMing D&D give players xp (small ammounts) for actually investing themselves in the story and in their characters with good RP moments, and doing other things usually that involve iniciative and interacting with the world. It feels rewarding when receiving xp like that too. Otherwise I found out, without the roleplaying element it starts to feel as if all the characters do is murder things in order to get stronger, constantly. Also aided by the fact that from a player perspective, it seems like it is the only thing worth doing in order to advance your character, really, or changing things at all.
A player character wants to sneak into a noble's manor at night because he wants to see if he can find any evidence, or hints, to the man plotting with a guild. The rest of the party sighs in frustration, what is he doing, he's wasting their time they should be on their way to kill the goblins from the mines. There's nothing to gain from the manor, it's just a waste of time. It's not going to give them any xp.
While I do also believe that it should be impossible for any character to be a shut.in, and also reach level 20 for some unexplainable reason, no one has thus far roleplayed their character as that. And reaching level 20, realistically speaking now, not just theoretically, by only doing social threads, is pretty much an impossibility. From level 5 onwards the xp needed for the next level starts to become every time more abysmal. And by then you pretty much need adventuring, because a single thread could net you 10.000xp, without even taking into consideration whether your posts are long or not. That alone could be achieved much, much faster by just slaying monsters, no literary effort involved. While with social threads, even those with several pages and long posts and detailed explanations and descriptions, are around 2k. And they get no boost whatsoever.
2k when you need 900 for leveling up seems like a lot. 2k when you need 25k to level up, you do begin to realise even such a thread is but a speck of xp when compared to any other sort of possibility, specially when comparing effort and reward from both types. I don't think roleplaying should be penalized (Or viewed as optional, but I'm not that extreme) more than it already is because to be fair the idea about slaying monsters to me is secondary to the idea of doing things with my character and building relationships and consequences with others. And if his growth would he hampered because of it, I'd feel pretty bummed out.
If you were to implement said changes to the way xp is handled, I would suggest you review the rules about not allowing players to have autonomy over "Adventures" without a stand-in as a GM, in the same fashion that is allowed in other freeform places. This could have it's own set of rules and guides so a such as "They can't find any magic item" during such threads and/or "Combined xp of encounters can't exceed X per level" among others. Some other ideas include: "They can't find any gold/piece of equipment to sell that exceeds the gold earned for the thread. Anything they find/keep will be deducted from the final earnings". "Using dice rolls in X place where they can't be edited" (If that thought were to be problematic. Though that last one I think could be for everyone) and more.
Thus we would both meet the criteria and have autonomy over it. If there is something I loathe is when the world around devolves into a non-sequitur quests of saving little timmy from the well, over and over, ran by different people and it being pretty much mandatory and the only thing that's happening, except for when someone runs their own campaign that actually has a continuity and trascendence... But obviously that would be for four player, tops. And if I wanted to do that, I wouldn't be here in the first place, I'd be playing a regular campaign with four other players.
Those are my thoughts on the subject
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Post by Kai Wren on Jan 21, 2019 13:57:28 GMT
Interesting.
There's a few reasons why I want to keep social threads granting XP at least in the earier tiers.
The primary one is that I don't want people to wind up locked down and unable to advance at all because there is a dearth of DMs. We've got a few plots running now, but things stall, and there are always more people wanting to play than people wanting to DM; that's just a fact of life!
Additionally, levels 1-2 are ... not super fun, in my opinion. There's a very limited number of threats that you can run up against, and I like the idea of people being able to 'establish' themselves through the beginning levels without needing to hunt down an arbitrary number of monsters. Level 3 is about the level I start to think of characters as 'established adventurers' (which is why everyone can choose to have 1 character start there). An alternate solution to this problem would, of course, be to allow any character to start at level 3 - but again, I like the idea that you have to do a little extra 'work' for your alt slots, even if it isn't a huge amount.
Alongside that, every game I've ever played has had an element of 'objective XP' handed out for things other than killing monsters. In fact, the vast majority of games I've played have been milestone in their entirety, with the DM just levelling people up when it feels appropriate - that's not really feasible in a play by post, continuous world style of RP, so I see the social XP bonus as being a way to fill some of those gaps.
My vision for the game is one where people have the freedom to grow their character to the levels that, traditionally, it becomes harder to reach in tabletop - but I anticipate that in reality most people will lose interest and dwindle off around levels 7-8 when it starts becoming significantly more difficult to level up regularly.
Having crunched the numbers, this is a problem which becomes much lesser already at higher levels.
It costs 20,000 xp to go from level 11 to level 12. If you were trying to do that entirely through the current social XP bonus, that would be 100,000 words. That's a novel! And it only gets you from level 11 to 12.
Conversely, killing a CR11 monster with 3 other people nets you 1,800 xp, which equates to about 9,000 words off that total. You're probably not going to have to kill more than (at the most) 10 monsters of that level to level up once the wordcount reward is taken into account, and 10 CR-appropriate encounters is probably somewhere between 3 and 5 threads depending on the pacing the DM is going for.
If we implement no gain for social threads at that level, you are probably looking at between 4 and 6 months of continuous play, assuming you can find a DM to run you that number of adventures targetted at people fighting stuff of your level. That actually seems reasonable to me as a milestone, because as you pull up into the higher tiers, it should take you several years of play to manage to get to the 17-20 bracket.
But I don't know that I want to slow down the first leg of the journey so much that it feels like there's no chance of reaching the middle bracket in a reasonable time, if you see what I mean? Right now, I think the system should let most people if they want to get their first character up to level 5 within 2-3 months depending on activity and drive. Then it'd start tapering off and becoming more difficult under the proposed system.
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Arikarka
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Linked Characters: Citrine, Gigi, and Rhia
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Post by Arikarka on Jan 21, 2019 17:22:49 GMT
Hey Waterdeepers Woke up to see this question/support/input posted and chuckled. I know how I was spending my morning coffee time  First? I'm super thankful, Kai, you posted this question to everyone. It shows good leadership and board ownership, and a respect to the members here, to ask about this instead of just changing as you desire. So thank you. Second? I have no idea how to lead into this… except by crunching numbers and looking at it logically, then socially, then personally. I have no idea how long this stream of consciousness will be. I apologize already what will probably be a long post.
Personal Opinion
Overall? I want to share first why I, myself personally, am on a pbp RP site. Feel free to skip this until I quote Kai's proposed system if you don't want to hear a blog-like post. I'm here for the roleplay. The storytelling. The interactions between characters that makes my characters have to make choices, decisions, and live with consequences for either good or bad. I want the dice to be storytelling twist-of-fate like elements. I am here for the 5e structure that encourages RP by having backstories be a part of the character creation process. I am not here to roll an online dice generator in a classic dungeon-dive setting that the first editions were designed around. If the board changes to focus primarily on monster slaying? I will probably leave, due to that not being what I desire out of a pbp site. I want to write and make stories with people who want to make stories too. That's just the sort of Rper I am. Nothing wrong with it. Just like there is nothing wrong with liking dungeon dives and monster slaying. I want a meat and potatoes, long-term storytelling sort of game. Not a beer and pretzels pick-up style type of game. And for me? Writing allows an in-dept approach to mutual storytelling that can't even be reached at the table. With this all in mind? My opinions and suggestions for the original question will obviously be slanted. There's no denying or hiding that.
Proposed New System
"From levels 1-5 you earn XP as currently allowed.
From levels 6-10 you only earn 1/2 XP from social threads or threads in which you act as DM when applying the XP reward to your character.
From level 11+ you may no longer earn XP from social threads, and threads in which you act as DM only provide 1/4 XP reward to your character.
This would ensure that there is a significant incentive for seeking out adventure threads, and that they are very definitely the biggest source of XP from level 6+.
Gold rewards would remain the same, so you'd still be able to earn cash (and thus buy awesome gear from the Auction House) regardless of your tier of play."I'll be blunt. I don't like it, no surprise there, lol! It penalizes people who have invested time into the site with no other benefit. Those who throw themselves into this site in their writing shouldn't be penalized. As the current structure stands? Here's the math: I crunched the numbers (and am including the excel file so anyone can see the original math formulas behind it to both double check and to ensure there is no fudging of numbers) and that chart is the result. Note too, for EXP? It's not a fresh start each level. The EXP builds on one another, keeping the level's DING as the new base line. It does not got to zero. Here's a handy EXP tracker to give a visual look. As you can see? 300 becomes lvl 2's new baseline. 900 for lvl 3, and so on and so forth. So even though it is a crazy jump from 5 to 6, 6,500 to 14,000!!! It only is, mathematically, a 7,500 increase. The chart I made showed the breakdown in several chunks of average word count and the number of posts that would be needed. This is how much it would take, on a pure SOCIAL level, to level. See that total word count column? Like… holy shit. Look at that. Look at it! It's stupid, towards the bottom there. For word count comparison? Let's look at the Harry Potter Series: HP 1 - 76,944 HP 2 - 85,141 HP 3 - 107,253 HP 4 - 190,637 HP 5 - 257,045 HP 6 - 168,923 HP 7 - 198,227 Total = 1,084,170 Someone would have to write more than the Harry Potter series combined in order to level to level 17 on a pure social standing alone. Let that sink in. Cutting the EXP earned from social threads only hurts those who enjoy writing. At 10xp per 50 words? It's a mist-drop once you pass level 5. From there? If someone wants to seriously continue to level up? They MUST join adventure threads and/or take on the cloak of DM/GM/Storyteller and run adventures themselves. It is practically impossible for anyone to level past 4-5 on social alone. The fear of it being the only avenue used to level? Well, if people want to quit their job, life, and just write at all hours of the day to do so, good for them? The 10EXP/50words self-regulates itself at this point. Cutting it simply feels pointless.
New Idea?
As it stands right now? I like the current system. It gives a reward to those who enjoy exploring Social threads while still giving a HUGE weight to Adventure threads, and an even BIGGER Weight to those who DM. At this point? I don't feel like anything needs to change, on a pure EXP earning side. I do however feel he limit on not allowing your own character in an adventure thread you run is… unfortunate. And I would like to see this change. I would like to be able to run adventure threads that are there to show something my character is investigating, and needs the help from her friends, or has to hire other adventures to help her with. I want to tell more in-depth stories with her - and no one else can take these ideas in my head and DM style run it for me. It's just… impossible. I can't download and upload my ideas to someone else. In past RP boards we had 'Adventure Threads' but they were called 'Storylines'. They never had anyone in a traditional DM spot. The 'Leader' of the Storyline (SL) moved the story along as if a DM, but it never hindered their ability to have their own character be in their own stories. Many people had personal plotlines they wanted to explore with their character, and did so with years-long SLs. And it was never a problem. I feel the only way for me to explore stories that would really affect my character are through social threads, and if those have 0 reward attached to it? I won't bother. The gold doesn't matter to me, magic items are a single lot a month auction house (a whole 'nother discussion), so gold becomes a pointless reward except to hoard it. I understand the fear of a DM having an meta-like advantage. But that can be managed with the simple 'if it becomes a problem, it will be addressed then.' Consequences include not being able to DM with your own characters involved… and I can't think of anything else at the moment… But you get the idea.
Adventure =/= Monster Slaying
A big thing must be cleared then, if Waterdeep pbp only considered adventure threads as 'counting' for EXP in terms of being murder hobos. If you have the time, anyone? Give this video a watch. It doesn't fully apply, but it applies enough. I've been on pbp sites where we use a modified milestone system. It didn't always work - hence my huge support for the current system. However? If EXP only cares about what CR monsters we can kill, or baddies we can fight? That's…. That's just cutting out a huge part of what makes pbp and tabletop fun [IN MY OPINION]. Adventure threads then could just be a stream of dice rolls and numbers being thrown around. There's no point in writing motivations, actions, and the in-between scenes. It makes intrigue and investigation like adventure threads obsolete. It takes the writing out of a pbp site. Which is why people are here. To write stories (no matter your word count). Is monster slaying really the only thing that makes D&D, D&D? I don't think so. If I want to just murder-hobo? I'll play a game like Diablo or Dynasty Warriors. The current system already lightly supports social/intrigue scenes in an adventure thread. Taking a few posts to talk to an NPC to gather information? That's word count, rewarding a player who asks questions and is contemplating what's going on. Anything else bigger that they solve? I'd award EXP for that more potent social scene/completion of the event or barrier. How I planned on figuring out EXP earned in my new Lost in the Woods adventure thread? There's EXP for a various number of situations that must be gotten past. Say a bear. You can kill the bear and get the EXP, sure. Or my PCs can distract the bear, sleep the bear, sneak around the bear - accomplishing the task of getting through the bear rewards the EXP. The only way to not get it? Turning around and ignoring the bear. But, if the only way for them to get EXP is to kill the bear? Well… alrighty then.
TL;DR
In conclusion: I support the current system I want to see the allowance of personal PCs in DM Adventure threads a PC runs I need to see a clear definition of what counts as EXP in Waterdeep pbp. Monsters only? New Edit: I focused on talking to the first post, not any of the discussion afterwards. It just would have been too long a response. |
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Post by Kai Wren on Jan 21, 2019 18:02:39 GMT
Thank you for those numbers, Ari.
That does make the current system look more reasonable - it already seems to roughly put the barriers where I wanted.
However, I'm not going to change the rules on people GM'ing adventures in which their characters are full and active participants.
This is because the story of one's character in a role-playing game is not something I feel one should have full ownership of. This is a bit of a philsophical point, I admit, but the difference between writing a novel or story and collaborating in a role-playing game is that other people throw curveballs and surprises.
Keeping the rule in place means that players are forced to seek other players who would be interested in running plots based around their characters. This is a healthy thing! It can be reciprocal, and it encourages buy-in from players to look at and engage with the characters their fellow players have created.
If we changed the rule, people would be free to take much greater control over their character, and they've already got some pretty significant tools to do that. I do not think that would be healthy for the game on a fundamental level; quite leaving aside the conflicts of interest which might be argued to be in place when a GM has a personal stake in the outcome of events (no GM is ever truly unbiased, but throwing in their own PC as a significant element makes it that little bit more biased).
Basically, if you want your character to be investigating things or exploring elements of their background with other PCs getting involved? That's great - but I want you to find someone else to bring their vision in with yours. That is what makes these games stand out from pure writing exercises in my mind, and I feel we'd lose a lot by changing that.
As for what counts as experience?
Monsters are the easiest by far - they have a set challenge rating.
If GMs want to award experience for other things they are free to do so - but it requires a bit more work by me. As per the DMG, noncombat encounters should be considered by the same metric and experience awarded accordingly - so, if I agree that a challenge was appropriate to the party level with a good chance that they could have failed and there was genuine threat or consequence for doing so? I will grade appropriately and award XP accordingly if the DM requests it when coming to dish out rewards.
It'll just tend to take a little longer and I may have to quiz DMs a bit on what they were thinking behind the scenes at various points.
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Arikarka
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Post by Arikarka on Jan 21, 2019 19:16:01 GMT
Too keep my thoughts structured, I'm gonna reference parts of your post Kai. And because it should always be said? Because it's hard to tell when reading text and not hearing a person's voice? I say none of this in a negative, confrontational, argumentative tone of voice. I'm sharing thoughts and hope to have a civil respectful conversation <3 But this is the only way to have a discussion via pbp sites XD
This is because the story of one's character in a role-playing game is not something I feel one should have full ownership of. This is a bit of a philosophical point, I admit, but the difference between writing a novel or story and collaborating in a role-playing game is that other people throw curveballs and surprises.
Philosophical aside, PCs always have control over their characters. That's why metagaming and others taking that choice away from a character gets so much argument at tables. Railroading is another term - a GM telling or pointing in a certain dictated direction? It's no fun. Players control their own characters. End of story. Players choose how their characters react. A GM never owns my characters or chooses what to do with them. The curveballs and unknowing how other characters react - that's the fun part - and purely Player responsibility. You can know how your own character would do things, but they still much work with, interact, argue, support, etc other 'people'.
Having your own character in a story you are also DMing does not take away from this. And at the end of the day? If no one signs up or wants to join the character-focused personal plotline? Then there is no plotline. If people try in, and the story is too unfair or not cohesive and reciprocal? No one will sign up in the future. Your side of it assumes that it is only the DM's PC who will care about the story and not have other's own PC interests into consideration. A story with a DM's PC here still has all the input, curveballs, uncertainty, and chaos that comes with having multiple people creating a cohesive story.
Keeping the rule in place means that players are forced to seek other players who would be interested in running plots based around their characters. This is a healthy thing! It can be reciprocal, and it encourages buy-in from players to look at and engage with the characters their fellow players have created.
... so how is this any different from my suggestion? You say, right here, that seeking other players who are interested running plots around their characters is a healthy thing. This is the core of what I want, paired with adventure thread degree of reward.
If we changed the rule, people would be free to take much greater control over their character, and they've already got some pretty significant tools to do that. I do not think that would be healthy for the game on a fundamental level; quite leaving aside the conflicts of interest which might be argued to be in place when a GM has a personal stake in the outcome of events (no GM is ever truly unbiased, but throwing in their own PC as a significant element makes it that little bit more biased).
This is the core difference and where the philosophy comes into play. You're seeing it from the glass half empty, people are going to take the 'negative' side first. I'm seeing it from the glass half full, people are going to take the 'positive'. At a table? It's hard to have a GM run a PC. In fact, they're called GM-NPCs in my friend group - major NPCs the GM has to run regularly due to the party relying on them regularly or seeking them out. They become near a PC in their own right. Yes, they are still not the focus. It's tabletop. The PCs are the focus. But in writing pbp? The viewpoints change. It's a bit more wibbly-wobbely. A PC can be the initial focus, but still have the group dynamic of others caring and being invested, because of the format.
But if we truly have the same viewpoint, as seen in the quote just above this one (healthy thing point) then... there's no disagreement. The reciprocal nature of a player investing in another player is what I want, via the format of adventure thread rewards. Things these larger and more impressive than a 'sitting in a tavern' level of social thread. Socials I see are the in-between breathers of big events/scenes/moments - the adventure threads.
Basically, if you want your character to be investigating things or exploring elements of their background with other PCs getting involved? That's great - but I want you to find someone else to bring their vision in with yours. That is what makes these games stand out from pure writing exercises in my mind, and I feel we'd lose a lot by changing that.
It's impossible, saying again, to have a PC explore something and not have others involved. It is therefore something that (in my opinion) would naturally encourage PCs to have merging and related goals, spider-webbing to include other PC's interests into coming into light. Your mindset? It's having the assumption again that PCs only would care for their own well-being and players wouldn't be comprehensively tying their respective PCs together. We want to have a tabletop like experience? Have a true adventuring party? Then the party members need to care about each other, need to find out about their pasts and make those bonds of friendship. Explore the other's fears and wants and therefore also share their own. It would allow more of a Party feel. Right now? It just ends up being, then, a notice board people sign up for and rag-tag together with no cohesion.
How can someone find another way to bring their vision out, if they are not able to run their own story with the hope of getting rewards?
As for what counts as experience?
Monsters are the easiest by far - they have a set challenge rating.
If GMs want to award experience for other things they are free to do so - but it requires a bit more work by me. As per the DMG, noncombat encounters should be considered by the same metric and experience awarded accordingly - so, if I agree that a challenge was appropriate to the party level with a good chance that they could have failed and there was genuine threat or consequence for doing so? I will grade appropriately and award XP accordingly if the DM requests it when coming to dish out rewards.
It'll just tend to take a little longer and I may have to quiz DMs a bit on what they were thinking behind the scenes at various points.
Having only one person be the final approval on an adventure thread is risky. The site is small, so it works now, but what happens when a scene is done and you don't agree with the DM? Is it all for nothing? Was all that work by the DM and players for nothing? Members have the ability to DM as they please, with any homebrew on top of it, and to design encounters and XP as designed, but the risk of anything creative or unique or different puts the whole thing at risk. That's just a comment, it'll be thing that shows as the scenarios happen.
Overall? With the structure how it is at the moment? I'll then be using this method to level. Because people like leveling, the DING. It's not just part of tabletop, but video games too. If there's no way for me to create encounter like adventure threads with my own character in it? I'll just keep it as social threads, post up info about it to the RP Discussion page looking for interested parties just as if it were an adventure thread, but run it as a social thread. Where rolls literally don't matter, do it all theater of the mind, and therefore just gain social rewards. To supplement? I'll run a bunch of DM Adventure threads, that stick to the traditional monster fighting format, and apply all my DM rewards to my character. Two birds one stone, everyone else can benefit from my continual revolving door of adventure threads, and I get the experience as a DM and allow my characters to grow. And if people don't want to be involved in this way? I'll find out pretty early. And then? I'll realize this isn't a board that suits my needs (to no one's blame or anything!!!) and say thank you everyone for the chance to try out Waterdeep, and carry on my way through reddit for something else.
And repeating my disclaimer: Because it's hard to tell when reading text and not hearing a person's voice? I say none of this in a negative, confrontational, argumentative tone of voice. I'm sharing thoughts and hope to have a civil respectful conversation <3 But this is the only way to have a discussion via pbp sites XD
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Kestrel
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Posts: 319
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 21, 2019 19:56:58 GMT
Just wanted to add on to what I said earlier because I feel like people are really misconstruing what I was trying to say (which could be completely my fault, I wrote all that at 2 in the morning!): I by no means am saying that XP should only be rewarded for "killing monsters". Rather, the crux of my argument was that XP should be given out for action rather than word count. If a DM makes the call that said action is the completion of a tense negotiation, discovering a new landmark, solving a puzzle, etc. then great! They should! But whether a player does that through 500 or 5000 or 50000 words to me is kind of irrelevant and shouldn't be the primary determiner of how much XP someone gets. In DnD itself players are generally leveled up at similar rates, regardless of how great of an RPer they are or how much mastery they have over the rules, and I would seriously argue that doing otherwise is a hallmark of a not great DM. I guess whether that happens through solely adventure threads or social threads as well here is kind of irrelevant to me, so the main point of my argument I suppose is against an XP/word system.
Also, I do want to throw in my thoughts a little on having a DM's character involved in their own adventure thread, and in so doing respectfully disagree fundamentally with Ari and support Wren in this case. As with your (Ari's) own post I say this all with utmost respect and civility, and as someone who's primarily done self-driven, character centered RPs for the last 11 years or so (so I completely understand the sentiment), I do have to ask: if you're so concerned about being the sole controller of your character, why join a PbP site? By it's very nature a PbP site that is based off a mechanical system, as opposed to a traditional RP site, implies the use of a thread moderator (DM in this case) who has greater control over a thread and a charcter's story than in a traditional site where the player is the sole determiner of what goes on to their character. In DnD it's the DM who ultimately controls the setting, the NPCs, the baddies, etc., and while players can offer up backstory elements, poke and prod the world, and involve themselves heavily in the RP (which they should!!) it's still the DM at the end of the day who is going to provide the challenges, the quests, and the characters around which the player will determine their story. I personally don't think DM's would be very biased about having their own character in the thread (I tend to give the people the benefit of the doubt that the vast majority of them are honest about things like that) but if we made it so the DM can involve their own character in their adventures and center said adventures around them, I do fear that it would take away that small bit of "gameyness" that DM has, that your character is ultimately reacting, not creating, the world around them. And honestly that "gameyness" is part of what DnD is about. If I wanted to join a site where I was the sole controller of my character and was the sole force behind their story, I would have joined a different, more traditional RP site. As it stands, I joined a site that uses thread moderators, XP and levels, and adventure threads where my character has slightly less agency. And that's okay with me.
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Post by Malakbel on Jan 21, 2019 20:01:07 GMT
I would like to make a post as articulate as Ari's, but I think she nailed pretty much what I wanted to say as well. Almost down to the letter, except the last part regarding her current plan with the structure as is. I find the idea about running non-sequitur threads of the probervially ratcatching threads (No offense intended to any level 1 adventurer) for the sole purposing of leveling up, rather... contrary to what I like about pbp boards, or what I'm looking for.
I do not have that kind of resilience.
If I did indeed began GMing light one-shots for the sole purpose of leveling up one of my characters as well as those involved in them, it wouldn't be long before I tire out, for what truly interests me is elsewhere, and it'd feel like some homework I have to do in order to keep going with the story that interest me. (Which would require me to actually run separate GM threads to not fall behind everyone currently hypothetically also participating in them, and also asuming players would be on board with the GM thread too, otherwise it would be an entirely different problem)
Addendum: Regarding Kestrel's post above mine (which I didn't see until I was done posting mine) an easy solution to that would be, like I mentioned in my first, give the option so both things can stand side by side.
One method is having a GM be all, end all: The GM says what, and that's it.. The other method is the usual collective writing, abiding by the same rules as everything else does.
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Arikarka
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Post by Arikarka on Jan 21, 2019 20:26:12 GMT
Heya Kestrel! Thanks for the questions I'ma grab parts of your post too, so I'm sure not to miss anything.
I do have to ask: if you're so concerned about being the sole controller of your character, why join a PbP site? By it's very nature a PbP site that is based off a mechanical system, as opposed to a traditional RP site, implies the use of a thread moderator (DM in this case) who has greater control over a thread and a charcter's story than in a traditional site where the player is the sole determiner of what goes on to their character.I wouldn't call it sole controller, per say. I live for the DM presenting challenges and events to overcome. I love waiting for people to post back their next 'move' to then interact with. I never know what someone is going to write, how their characters will react, and it is why I will probably never write a book. I love the interaction way too much. That being said, that's why I gravitate to PbP sites. I suppose the biggest thing for me personally? I've spent time since 2006/7ish? On sites that didn't have a 5e mechanical system for anything. This is my first mechanical run site where EXP is structured and black and white, where abilities, powers, and classes are black and white. It, frankly, boggles my mind to need to rely on rolls in which to have a successful PbP scene. The rolls, to me, add a twist of fate and are responsible for changing outcomes - of which the DM has their hand in.… this all might have been divergent from the real question, but I'll leave it. To be clearer as well, I'm not looking to have the ability to action-figure like pose my character in a clear A B C sort of way through a story scene that involved fighting monsters, exploring ruins, helping commoners. But I don’t want to be waiting around for someone else to create an adventure style scene that involves XYZ like I would like to participate in and have my character experience, so why not run it myself and let others join in? The alternative is to tell/ask someone to run a story that includes elements 1,2,3 and has this sort of NPC and so on and so forth… that's no fun for anyone I imagine.
In DnD it's the DM who ultimately controls the setting, the NPCs, the baddies, etc., and while players can offer up backstory elements, poke and prod the world, and involve themselves heavily in the RP (which they should!!) it's still the DM at the end of the day who is going to provide the challenges, the quests, and the characters around which the player will determine their story.I would disagree in some ways, though agree in the core fundamental part of what you said here. To me? The DM is the avatar in which the players get to explore their character and, via discussions with the DM, plan out a story that everyone wants to play. I could go on for -ages- here, but that's not the topic of this thread… which already feels like it's diverged from the original topic and goal… my bad, I take some responsibility for that. So we can shelf this and healthy and in a friendly way debate this later XD <3
I personally don't think DM's would be very biased about having their own character in the thread (I tend to give the people the benefit of the doubt that the vast majority of them are honest about things like that) but if we made it so the DM can involve their own character in their adventures and center said adventures around them, I do fear that it would take away that small bit of "gameyness" that DM has, that your character is ultimately reacting, not creating, the world around them. And honestly that "gameyness" is part of what DnD is about. If I wanted to join a site where I was the sole controller of my character and was the sole force behind their story, I would have joined a different, more traditional RP site. As it stands, I joined a site that uses thread moderators, XP and levels, and adventure threads where my character has slightly less agency. And that's okay with me.I agree with everything you say here, including the benefit of the doubt, the fear, and the gameyness. And, it is very possible that I, as a player/writer, just don't then fit in with the goal and desired type of player this board has. And that's okay! I myself want a sort of best-of-both-world hybrid - the structure 5e offers in EXP, leveling, powers, balance, etc, but with the added ability of having a format to write stories involving my characters (and other characters, PCs my PC meet and gets attached to, etc) I have a way to do what I enjoy, social threads, can offer more of what the site wants, traditional gamey D&D runs, and still level up. At the end of the day? I want to write socially with others. I really don't want to leave Waterdeep. I already love it here, and the people [we are smol yet fierce]. Perhaps I just need to make peace with the format myself - and that's totally fine. I can. I'm not gonna throw a teenage hissy fit and leave, bitch behind people's backs about it being not fair, etc. I'll be a bit disappointed for a time, but I'm still writing here. Which I want more than anything else. The worst case scenario in all of this? I just explore Citrine's story I want to pursue via social threads and 'get over' the adventure setup side of it, and then embrace the Waterdeep format and (hopefully) learn to like then love it. Oh darn. What a bad worst case scenario. #sarcasm |
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Kestrel
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 21, 2019 20:48:31 GMT
Just a small little clarification on my terminology since I'm probably using "PbP" really wrongly here: when I say traditional I mean mechanic-free systems (solely writing motivated) and when I say PbP I mean mechanic-based RP systems. Just in case it helps understand what I'm saying (not that I think you're getting anything wrong by any means! Just something I realized I might be doing a little confusingly.).
Honestly, at it's heart, I really don't disagree with anything that you're (Ari) saying. And I just want to quickly clarify that I hope I'm not coming across as "trying to force you off the site" or anything: you're clearly a really good writer and have a ton of passion for your characters which I respect immensely, and I for one look forward to the opportunity to get to RP with you someday (hopefully soon!) in the future! Having hybrid sites like this can be a little messy, so I guess the main issue that has to probably be worked out is that, at the end of the day, is this a DnD site with more of an RP emphasis or an RP site that uses DnD mechanics? That's really ultimately up to Wren as the head of the site (member input is important but at the end of the day it's Wren who's putting in all the time and effort in running an RP site, which from experience I know can be a LOT), and while I think theoretically a happy medium can be achieved, having that sort of clarification might make any further discussion on XP rewards and what not easier to parse through. Either way though this really is getting on to be a bit of a tangent! So sorry about that!
Also in response to Malakbel: I guess I'm not 100% sure what you're referring to unfortunately? If you mean by having both XP rewards for adventuring stuff and for word count, my counterpoint would be that having word count be a determiner for character growth is, in my mind, unfair to inexperienced writers and skews more toward people who have have years of writing/RP under their belt and a lot of time on their hands. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing depending on the site, but my first impression (as my earlier points on the matter I'm sure suggest) is that this was primarily a DnD site and not a writing site, so having that kind of favoritism doesn't sit well with me as a possible DM. That, and having word count "requirements" (even if those requirements are only perceived in an attempt to remain competitive with other characters!) can be very discouraging to new members and especially new writers. Something I do feel really strongly about as someone who can attribute the vast majority of my current writing skill to getting started on Proboards RPs. If I'm completely missing your point though I do apologize and please call me out on it!
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Post by Kai Wren on Jan 21, 2019 21:09:47 GMT
To drag things away somewhat from the adventure thread subject - because, honestly, that's not going to change in the foreseeable future.
There are a few XP models I considered for the site before opening.
1) XP per post, with a minimum post length requirement.
This flattens things out so nobody cares about how many words are used, but imposes a minimum level - this is required because if you don't put a minimum level, people could theoretically game the system by posting extremely rapidly back and forth and gain massively inflated rewards for an exchange which 'should' have been one or two posts.
I dislike this because I don't like the idea of minimum wordcounts. It means some people are forced to inflate what they wanted to put artificially, and that irks me.
2) Grading-based XP.
Essentially, staff (at the moment, just me) read every thread closely and assign XP according to whatever metric we deem fit.
I dislike this because, frankly, I'm lazy. I don't want to have to apply severe judgement to everything I read - and it all becomes ultimately subjective. At that point, am I rewarding 'good' writing? Or am I trying to measure the obstacles people encounter objectively? How can I do that when one person will have a gift for describing obstacles to make them sound far greater than they actually were, and others will downplay things with very concise and to-the-point language?
This is also by far the most staff-intensive, and would mean I'd have to spend more of my time here grading threads and less time working on other aspects of the site (like writing and running adventures).
3) 'Milestone' XP.
In this system, each player chooses goals for their character, short and long term, and they obtain XP as they meet these objectives, needing a scaling amount of short term goals for higher levels.
I decided against this because not everyone sets their character goals at the start of the game, which is absolutely fine, and keeping track of them is a nuisance - it puts the onus too much on the player of the character, I think, where these games work best when they aren't quite so scripted.
4) Wordcount XP
I decided on wordcount because it encourages - but does not force - description, making it the least intrusive of the options available. It is very easy for me to apply, and it provides an incentive for continuous undirected activity. I feel like a lot of the best RP comes from unexpected directions, and wordcount XP is an enticement for people to meet up and just 'see what happens' rather than being pushed towards particular goals right from the getgo and ignoring characters who might not fit into their preconceived idea of what they wanted their characters to be getting up to.
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Arikarka
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Post by Arikarka on Jan 21, 2019 21:16:31 GMT
I think that would be the biggest thing that is needed then, yes. Is this first a DnD board, or DnD using writing site? It might seem the same to some, but as we're all talking about it? I don't think it is.
Minus the fact that in some way shape or form, it is a writing site because there's writing involved XD
And to comment on Malakbel as well, and Kestrel's response to Malakbel's:
To relate the topic back to the main topic at hand? I feel the word count is best kept at the 10xp per 50 words, no matter where it's coming from. It rewards writing (an aspect I appreciate) without making it a focus (to accommodate all writing levels).
In all? I think it balances out. It takes a longer writer at least 30-40 minutes if not an hour to write more than 1,000 words. It takes a long time then for two long writers to complete a scene. In the time it took to write their scene? A quicker fast-paced adventure thread could have been started, done, and lots of xp rewarded. The heavier weight to adventure then still has the number one spot of being the primary method of 'playing the game'.
And to Malakbel specifically - you don't need to DM either. You just need others to DM, to get XP. Join all the adventures you can with your character! Problem solved. I have zero problem running multiple adventures. I like writing, duh, and would love to be able to use this love for writing to give others the chance to earn EXP via my adventures.
And, over-overall? The site is still new. Only a month-ish. Perhaps give it a quarter (3 months) to see if any sort of overhaul is needed yet? People are still new, characters are still new, and I don't know if there's enough problem yet to warrant an overhaul.
EDIT ADD, because Kai snuck a post in I didn't notice XD
I agree with all of your ideas you thought of and then discarded. Word count 50/10 I think still is an amazing format and one I think is very fair and manageable for all levels of participants.
Milestone and goal setting is hard to determine not at a table. Speed of scenes and progression just don't flow as quickly at they do at a table
And grading? Grading sucks, because it takes foreveerrrrrrr
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Post by Kralle on Jan 22, 2019 0:34:04 GMT
Late to the party, but do wanna say that I'm happy with the current system and I think we should stick with it. Had some doubts about it at first, but Ari's number crunching and pretty colored spreadsheets about how it self-imposes diminishing returns pretty much convinced me.
Don't get me wrong, I like adventure threads and virtual dice rolling. The "hand of fate" aspect is one of my favorite parts of D&D. I think the aspect of not knowing exactly how things will go can help encourage good roleplaying and limit people going all invincible demigod.
At the same time, I like the storytelling in tabletop RPGs. I mean really like. When I run RL face-to-face games I reward my players with actual in-game benefits. Bonus XP for interacting with NPCs and other players in creative ways, items or stat boosts if you manage to find a non-combat resolution to something I fully planned/expected to devolve into a bloodbath, etc.
And to reiterate a point made a few times above by several people: Level 1 sucks in pretty much every single system out there. I don't really want to spend hours (or possibly days) making a character with a backstory I like only to have them get killed by a lone goblin or group of rats in the first encounter. It's not fun. I generally like to have my players skip straight to Level 3 or 5 for games I run (unless it's a prebuilt, balanced module) specifically because of this. So barring that, I like that Waterdeep has a "safe-mode" via social/solo threads to get a character out of the not so fun low levels.
Just my two cents though. I'm honestly just happy that we have a group of people and Admin who are open to suggestions and actually talking about this kind of stuff in a civilized manner.
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Post by Lilian Welton on Jan 25, 2021 9:09:47 GMT
Happy New Year 2021!!!
Are you working tomorrow?
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